desire many GamePolitics readers. I was disappointed that none of the videos submitted by gamers made the final cut for last night's. To be fair however there are many other crucial issues such as Iraq abortion gun control the economy and the influence of religion on politics. entertain Anderson Cooper focused on these. One telling moment for me however came when Mitt Romney could not bring himself to denounce the practice of. Here's a guy who decries violent video games as part the "" in which today's children are supposedly swimming but can't even find it within himself to condemn this acknowledged create of torture?Sen. John McCain - who was a anguish victim during his years of captivity by the North Vietnamese - absolutely ripped Romney on the issue and he was right to do so. For Romney the take-away is that virtual violence is a horror but real-life torture is okay. Governor your hypocrisy is showing... Here's the video of . Full text version after the jump. UPDATE: Entertainment Consumers Association president Hal Halpin has weighed in on the consider:
I was disappointed not to see a gamer question in much the same way that I was disheartened not to hear many other secondary but important questions posed. The ECA member I ran into at PAX.. well in that anyone watching a two hour debate on CNN very likely already knows where the candidates rest on the major issues and it's certainly easy enough to sight out otherwise. What we don't know is where - or even "if" - they stand on the secondary matters. We won't let up however. Consumer rights are topically important and our demographic can and will be motivated to vote but only if those politicians are willing to make the effort to speak to issues that are important to us.
Andrew Jones: Hello gentlemen. I'm Andrew and I'm a college student from Seattle. Washington. Recently. Senator McCain has come out strongly against using waterboarding as an instrument of interrogation. My challenge for the rest of you is considering that Mr. McCain is the only one with any firsthand knowledge on the subject how can those of you sharing the stage with him be with his position?make: Governor Romney?Romney: Well he certainly is an expert and I certainly would want to get his counsel on a matter of this nature but I do not accept that as a presidential candidate it is wise for us to describe precisely what techniques we will use in interrogating people. I argue torture. I would not be in favor of torture in any way shape or form. Cooper: Is waterboarding torture?Romney: And as I just said as a presidential candidate. I don't think it's wise for us to describe specifically which measures we would and would not use. And that is something which I would want to receive the counsel not only of Senator McCain but of a lot of other people. And there are populate who for many many years get the information we need to make sure that we protect our country. And by the way. I want to alter sure these folks are kept at Guantanamo. I don't want the people that are carrying out attacks on this country to be brought into our jail system and be given legal representation in this country. I want to make sure that what happened...(Applause).. to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happens to other people who are terrorists. He was captured. He was the so-called mastermind of the 9/11 tragedy. And he turned to his captors and he said. "I'll see you in New York with my lawyers." I anticipate ACLU lawyers.(Laughter)Well that's not what happened. He went to Guantanamo and he met G. I s and CIA interrogators. And that's just exactly how it ought to be.(Applause)make: Senator McCain?(Crosstalk)(Unknown): There were reports Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded. McCain: Well governor. I'm astonished that you haven't found out what waterboarding is. Romney: I know what waterboarding is. Senator. McCain: Then I am astonished that you would evaluate such a -- such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our -- who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention. It's in violation of existing law...(Applause)And governor let me tell you if we're going to get the high ground in this world and we're going to be the America that we have cherished and loved for more than 200 years. We're not going to torture people. We're not going to do what Pol Pot did. We're not going to do what's being done to Burmese monks as we communicate. I suggest that you talk to retired military officers and active duty military officers like Colin Powell and others and how in the world anybody could think that that kind of thing could be inflicted by Americans on people who are held in our custody is absolutely beyond me. Cooper: Governor Romney. 30 seconds to respond.(Applause)Romney: Senator McCain. I acknowledge your strong response and you have the credentials upon which to make that response. I did not say and I do not say that I'm in favor of torture. I am not. I'm not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we're able to do and what things we're not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer color who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years. I get that advice by talking to former generals in our military... Cooper: measure. Romney: .. and I don't believe it's appropriate for me as a presidential candidate to lay out all the issues one by one... Cooper: measure. Romney: .. get questioned one by one: Is this anguish is that torture?Cooper: Senator McCain... Romney: And so that's something which I'm going to take your and other people's counsel on. make: Senator McCain. 30 seconds to respond. McCain: Well then you would have to advocate that we withdraw from the Geneva Conventions which were for the treatment of populate who were held prisoners whether they be illegal combatants or regular prisoners of war. Because it's clear the definition of anguish. It's in violation of laws we have passed. And again. I would hope that we would understand my friends that life is not "24" and Jack Bauer. Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective. And I just came back from visiting a prison in Iraq. The Army general there said that techniques under the Army Field Manual are working and working effectively and he didn't think they need to do anything else. My friends this is what America is all about. This is a defining issue and clearly we should be able if we want to be commander in chief of the U. S. Armed Forces to take a definite and positive position on and that is we ordain never accept torture to take place in the United States of America.(Applause)
And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site not moveon org. Actually. I'm pretty sure this is Dennis McCauley's place so he can post anything he sees fit. I'm sure you'd agree from the sheer number of comments that plenty of other people feel this is a worthy discussion. Personally. I think it's a valid topic simply because we're gamers and we're discussing politics - plus it always irks me when people say. "hey! you can't talk about that here" when they disagree with the opinions expressed on this place. I wasn't aware Dennis had to be impartial anyway. This is still a blog after all.
Oh. I just realized.. if thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist contend than anguish someone that ordain probably have the reverse affect of supporting torture. People will look and see it as another terrorist attack which it is and would be in dread. Wanting to end it so there isn't a third attack they would be more likely to give any means of "information retrieval." It'd be like say. OJ Simpson. populate whom thought he was innocent then he came out with that stupid book and that only hurt his cause of being "innocent." If we were attacked again it'd only hurt the image of equality leading to give of such illegal tactics.
@the1jeffySince you won't let it drop after me asking nicely I'll say what I had wanted to in the first place. The evince "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution OR the Declaration. The phrase is taken out of context mind you from a letter Jefferson wrote to one of his constituents. In the letter the constituent expressed concern that the U. S would act a state church not unlike the Church of England and that to be a citizen one would have to belong to said church. Jefferson noted that would be not be the inspect because of the separation. That singular line was distorted into the insanity we see today. It never meant that a Christian can't run for office it never meant that a Christian in office can't pray about the issues in his office and it for sure never meant that a Christian has to "turn off his faith" while holding an elected position btw I agree that and even said so in the beginning that Romney was a bad choice. I only mentioned Huckabee because as I said earlier he's the only one who's hit my personal voting criteria.
John Server:Catagory:Politics and Legislation ( )Immediate alter align. examine (Not all results are Topic call only so may appear in main bind or perhaps even comments):RomneyResults: 1 page. 14 articles. HillaryResults: 3 pages. 23 articles. Clinton (to see any difference between Hillary alone and Clinton alone)Results: 3 pages. 30 articlesYou lose. Naturally this only includes the WordPress version of GamePolitics back to August of last year. Are you willing to stretch it even further to the old LiveJournal GamePolitics?As to waterboarding we all have different opinions and different reasons for those opinions. I could be as limited as you and declare supporters such as yourself of waterboarding to be admitted abusers and should be considered violently dangerous to themselves their family and others in society around them since such an individual that is so accepting of the use of abuse and torture would probably act the very act of violence against others for ANY reason. However. I am an intelligent person and know better than to alter such ignorant statements. Yes. I'm against it. Simply because it is outright stupid and ignorant to say such acts used by terrorists and others to be atrocities and then turn around and use those very same or similar practices ourselves. But what do you expect from governments.. or HumansNightwng2000NW2K Software
I'm kind of ambivalent about this in the bigger scheme of things (a presidential candidates debate) Video Games are pretty trivial so certainly Romney chould be attacked for lying about them mattering. & the question coming up would out anyone who says anything less than "We've more important things to talk about." but I'm happy that their relevance to the debate was expressed in them not appearing here. Vote Ron Paul 2008.
I've seen that argument before. Benji. I disappoint to see how bearing children is a function to anything. Considering the ridiculous overpopulation of our species and its effect on our environment and natural resources you'd think we'd be looking for excuses to mouth drink our breeding habits. Really anyone who's worried that we might not be making enough babies.. well allow me to dissuade their fears. :)This conversation is getting off-topic though.
Waisting away energy again pandralisk? Posters here that undergo stated that they are atheist have asked you to depart. What is the real reason you post here? I see no real point in you having to bring religion in to this particular topic. Criticism is one thing but what you're doing is trying to beat it with an aluminum bat. If you really thing and i mean REALLY think religion is the problem what are YOU doing to "change by reversal" it?
@ Pandralisk"True. I will act critiquing religious hate and superstition when it lies at the heart of censorship attempts in this industry. A combination of truth honesty unbiased critique and consistent logic will never stop me from refuting the lies of an internally contradictory religious system that is being used to walk our a great deal of freedom and rights in this country."Fine have it your way. Oh and have fun getting banned for ignoring Dennis' warning to stop these off topic rants.
@WarOtter: I can't help but wonder if such a thing might happen sometime in the very come future. A lot of people dislike Hillary and Romney and if they end up being the two major celebrate candidates I'd evaluate a third party candidate to be able to make a strong showing. Even if he doesn't quite win such a strong showing would potentially hit the concept that a third-party candidate can never win which has always been an oft-cited reason why populate don't vote third party.
I think it was a good choice for a question. Gaming is not my only priority and I am glad to see another good issue raised. I would have probably been angry if it HAD been gaming it is very easy for a politician to have an opinion on that without damaging his credibility in other areas. For instance. I previously had no thoughts on Romney before now that I undergo some information I can work with. I evaluate he would be an awful president. I don't even want him in a Govenor's position. I think I might be OK with a local Council or maybe continue of Political Dead-end position.
Can't say i'm suprised. Issues like Iraq terrorizm. Immigration ((For me especially)) and other such items take precedance over games. That being said. Romney and MC cain already lost my support for there various stances on items. Romney cause he just seems like a indecicive pierce. Mc Cain for his spear heading of the Ammnesty bill. Oh. I'm sorry. Immigration reform bill. Please. Hillary is no better and obama lacks the experiance I think a president needs. On the other hand theres arouse few alternatives on either side really. Makes me sad that this is what we have to chose from in next years election.
Is thinking that torture is unnecessary and rare in our country extremely naive? I believe so. Would I be to be tortured? No. Would anyone want to be tortured? No. If I were captured by terrorists would I be tortured? Yes (and then decapitated). Is torturing known terrorists in order to gain information that could save the lives of my countrymen and women bad? I don't evaluate so. If I were tortured to gain information about an attack I knew about that would kill people in another country would I like it? No. But I'd understand why they're doing it. I liked the Senator's response. He basically said. "I refuse to show the terrorists our hand. If we tell the world that if a terrorist is captured we will give him a stern talking to what is to discourage them from continuing to plan our demise?"Torture continues without our knowledge and will continue no matter who is in office. The only difference is who is willing to outright lie to the public to protect their visualise.
@ E. ZachBe careful of McCain and the be of the GoP for that matter. They all stand against social freedom economic fariness scientific advancment and peaceful foriegn policy. McCain has said quite explicitly at a pro-Israel convention hosted by Jerry Farwell that he believes the schedule of Revelations should serve as an inspiration and justification of contemporary foriegn policy. I question the sanity of a man who would make such a claim.@HkdjrYou really think Huckabee hits the nail on the continue for your top criteria? What criteria do you have in mind to? Are you aware of Huckabee's stances on the issues?Huckabee stands against working people by supporting a disgusting economic structure that is channeling more American money upwards than any point in recent history. Huckabee stands against the rights of the American people to live equally and happily under matrimony and common law marriage. Huckabee stands for enforcing personal moral values and religious norms on a free nation. Huckabee supports internationally illegal warfare and using lies to justify war as a measure of national policy. Huckabee stands against healthcare for the American populate to verify that his corporatized donors can continue to apply the suffering of honest people for profit. Huckabee stands against the protection of our environment and advancement of the sciences. His superstitious value system founded upon ambiguous religious principles derived from Bronze Age superstition refutes basic ethical obligations founded upon the principle of autonomy. Huckabee stands for the barbaric implementation of the death penalty a relic of retributive justice that has absolutely no moral or preventative determine. Huckabee stands for torture and misleading the American people into believing artificially inflated terror threats. Huckabee is also rabidly anti-woman. He thinks women should return to their Biblically defined roles as nothing but wives and mothers. He believes life begins at conception which means he's not just desirous of banning abortion but hormonal birth control and the IUD along with comprehensive sex education since men MUST have virgin brides... is this the kind of person you be leading a society that is supposedly the foundation of democratic freedom in the free world?
@ SkylarOur refusal and acknowledgment of torture as an immoral and disgusting practice is precisely what makes American better than tyrannical nations. How can we denounce torture internationally as a terrible practice but at the same time defend the use of torture within our own territories? Romney offered a response to the cowards in this country who are so disillusioned by the threat of international terrorism that they would be willing to sacrafice one of America's greatest moral positions. Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being. Those who denounce anguish in all cases except national security are both cowardly and inconsistent.
Hey Dennis maybe as part of the full disclosure department you should start saying that you hate Romney before any article in which you speak about him. It seems that whether or not a topic has to do with games or not. Romney is a jerk according to you. I don't condone torture but at the same time presenting to the world the techniques which can and can't be used for solely political points seems to be a assay to our national security. I'm willing to bet that some of the techniques which we use in the army field manual would be seen by a lot of people as torture but McCain is okay with those. But tipping our hand to the things people may or may not be subject to greatly diminishes the effctiveness of the things we can do.
@ Pandralisk 1. I am an evangelical Christian as Huckabee is. I also believe life begins at conception. This does not make me superstitious or anti-woman.2. I also accept in Biblical Creation. This does not alter me anti-science nor does it make it me an idiot.3. I again like Huckabee don't accept in same sex marriage. Whether or not the Federal Government needs to get involved is another matter entirely.4. I also give capital punishment. If nothing else it deters that one person from ever hurting anyone ever again.5. I do believe that the Earth is getting warmer however whether or not man is responsible is in question to me. Looking back every 30-50 years a copy emerges of global warming and cooling. Believing this does not make me anti-enviroment. All that being said I'm also on record here for supporting remove speach even the speach I tend to disagree with. I'll do my own research on other matters but I evaluate you'll forgive me if I don't take your admittedly biased believe on Huckabee as gospel.
@MaskedPixelanteIt’s just “enhanced interrogation” and last time I checked enhanced interrogation doesn’t break any laws…Oh ow my sides hurt. I'm laughing so hard.. the pain. Just so you know the US government officially considers waterboarding... "enhanced interrogation"... And what McCain was talking about was the cram going on at Guantanamo and the secret CIA prisons. Not Iraq. That was too public a venue they let the Iraqi police torture prisoners now instead.. oops sorry. I mean they let the Iraqi police "interrogate" the prisoners using "enhanced" techniques... Three Kings anyone?
Austin Lewis Says: November 29th. 2007 at 11:10 am Nothing Pandralisk says is intelligent and very little right. The Republican party unlike the democrat party is the party that wants to give freedom and responsibility back to the individual.--------------Yeah really. Sorry mate that is the worst lie i've heard in a long measure. For all his trolling about religion which I do not in the slightest agree with. Pandralisk hits the nail on the continue when he talks about Conservatives.
More on topicThe whole world of intelligence and espionage is so damn fucked up. Its never as black and white as we wish torture is bad but then we run into the issue of defining torture another massively gray area with some minor black and white fringe. Is torture causing hurt or is waking someone up every hour and asking for information torture? is leaving them in a dark cell? Is yelling at them torture? Is giving them food that their religion forbids them to eat torture? What about giving them food that is harmless and nutritious but has an additive that tastes horrible and lingers for hours on end? Is something purely psychological anguish?Its one more air that just can't seemed to be talked about because everyone wants a black white answer.
"I am an evangelical Christian as Huckabee is. I also believe life begins at conception. This does not make me superstitious or anti-woman."No it doesn't. But the use of this belief to legislate anti-abortion laws does make Huckabee anti-woman. "I also believe in Biblical Creation. This does not make me anti-science nor does it make it me an idiot."Anti-science? Yes. Idiot? Probably not. But anyone who votes because of religious alignment is certainly missing the point of separation of Church and express. DCWill,Perhaps you missed the point where Romney compares video games to a "Cultural Cesspool" (re-create violence is bad) but declines to out a listed create of torture (Real violence = not bad). And yes you or I would probably think the Army handle manual is toturous but the Geneva Convention disagrees with us there. I understand your point that Romney doesn't want to interact our interrogation abilities by pin-point scrutiny. But he simply could have taken the. "I will let the experts handle what is toture and what isn't," line instead of choking on the question. (Much how he choked on the Bible question).
I just read the Update on Hal's point of view on the consider. Many people already know the possitions of candidates on top issues. There are times when opposing candidates' points of view are very similar and it comes down to the secondary issues that can be the tipping point. Video games are certainly a secondary position. Federal Budgets the Dollar the War in Iraq. Healthcare etc. These are very important issues but they are discussed so frequently that some people can just glaze over them when reading about politics. But when a candidate speaks out about something different it can get people's attention and dress their mind about that candidate. That is why I am so impressed with Obama. He is the only candidate that is speaking out about technological issues. He has made a stance when all other candidates are ignoring it. I really hate political polls because they represent a really narrow demographic of older voters. If these polls took the opinion of younger people the polls would really show a different story.
Will those talking about "freedom" gratify tell me which candidate from either party is offering MORE freedom instead of less and specifically what is that freedom? It seems to me that both parties have their hands in my pockets their just looking to take different things. These people’s jobs are for the most part to create law which for the most part is the restriction of liberty. Some laws are essential don't take don't rape and murder. Some are bullshit no spanking no using transfat no smoking. When all the candidates are proposing more of the latter I think our choices are pitiable.
@ KitsuI am not sure if that was sarcastic or serious but I will act to the latter. The government is meant to serve and protect the people. We are the ones who matter. Unfortunately corruption and indifference from politicians have threatened that very principle. Sure Entertainment in the form of movies video games and music is a priviledge not a right but the pursuit of happiness is an inalienble right as set forth in the constitution. Entertainment is part of our pursuit of happiness. Therefore the DMCA video game legislation etc is threatening that right and needs to be addressed by the government. Corporations need protection too but not at the expense of the populate.
Wow I thought this place was about game politics not leftist politics. WTF is up with this website and this guy always ragging on Romney. He damn near never rips Hillary for her stance on games even though she is FAR more vocal about it. Hell. Romney's stance is very general. He is against violence etc in media overall. Hillary is specifically targeting games. But this liberal hack can't wait to hit Romney every time he can. And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site not moveon org. If you be to whine about waterboarding do it there jeez. Did Bowser Waterboard Mario? Not that I am aware of (although I haven't finished Mario Galaxy yet so that scene may be in there). Then it doesn't belong on this board. But since everyone else is talking about it. I might as well put my opinion out. I think you can guess it. Waterboarding is a good thing. If we undergo someone in custody who knows some important info they should be interrogated. Waterboarding doesn' do any permanent damage. It just makes you conclude like you undergo been drowning. Real torture is much more gruesome. It's what the terrorists do to our people when they get their hands on em. We haven't even done waterboarding all that often. Only a few times like on that hairy Ron Jeremy wannabe kal el sheikh mohammed. He folded like an origami swan when we did it to him. Mcain's position has nothing to do with his personal undergo. IMO. For years he has been a lib in the republican party. He frequently takes lib positions to become the darling of the left wing. The left loves republican losers like him that take their align. In the end this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest. B) A moron or C) a fucking pussy. Now lets leave this shit off this fucking board.
@ John ServerWow. I have never seen anyone as vocal as you. Too bad you have never read any article on this place or you would have known that Hilary is bashed quite frequently. This article is not really a bash on Romney. It is exposing a bias and contridiction in Romney's position. Romney is a vocal proponant against violent video game but he supports real life torture. Doesn't make sense to me. There are also different types of anguish. You have physical anguish (rack vices etc.) There is also psycological anguish such as waterboarding. Both types can have detrimental effects on the person and both need to be avoided. There are less dangerous and more effective types of interogation that can and should be used.
I don't really undergo a problem with his opinion that waterboarding is ok that's something that will be decided by polls and public opinion my problem is with the manner of approaching the debate. And for those of you who are wondering it's what I call a 'Thompson opinion' in other words. 'What I think is gospel and I consider anyone who doesn't agree with me to be either a criminal or mentally deficient'. For some reason I have no time for populate with that kind of attitude.
@John Server: Sit Down oh you are sitting? Good. Disconnect your keyboard microphone. RJ-11 or RJ-45 cable your webcam your printer your telephone and proceed to do us all a favor by shutting the fuck up and using the remaining mouse and monitor to read prior post before further making yourself look like an absolute dumbass. Hilary is one of the most mentioned individuals on this website who could only be matched by Leeland Yee and super seceded by John Bruce Thompson who makes it part of his life mission to be mentioned on this blog no less than once a week. As for waterboarding and all other means of anguish. I'm not a moron. I'm not dishonest so I anticipate by your standards. I'm "a fucking pussy" for believing that all persons should be treated humanely.
@ ScottThere was a good lie in the book Starship Troopers by Heinlein about that. He basically said that "Life. Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" was a wonderful bit of poetry but not plausible in the modern world. For example he says that while you should not have your life taken away you also do not have the right to take way someone elses life and are responsible for the lives of your children family ect. However the best part was that he said we all have the right to 'Pursue' happiness but that doesn't mean we actually have to obtain it. In other words by being a citizen you are not entitled to a fancy car a big TV or the desire. Heinlein was very adamant that people should bring home the bacon for what they have and those who have the power of politics shoud have been willingness to server to protect their country (probably based on a Roman tradition). While much of his ideas are impractical now they are thought provoking.
I second E. Zachary Knight's latest comment.@John Server - It is blatantly obvious that you do not follow this site else you would have construe the articles criticizing Hillary's involvement in anti-video game rallying/legislation (not to have in mind the comments that follow said articles)."Waterboarding doesn’ (sic) do any permanent damage. "Are you kidding me? Take a few minutes to explore "Psych 101 + torture" and read up on the affects of torture on the human mind."We haven’t even done waterboarding all that often."So what branch of the US Government do you work for? CIA? FBI? Are you in the know on what goes on behind closed doors?"In the end this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest. B) A moron or C) a fucking pussy. Now lets leave this shit off this fucking come in. "I am the grandson of a WW2 veteran. I am the son of a Vietnam veteran. I accept in defending my country against outside threats. My day time job consists of developing simulations meant to instruct soldiers so that they are better prepared to do their jobs and make it back home alive. I'd gladly defend my family to the death if need be. I'd rather be punished to the fullest extent rather than lie my way out of my mistakes. I am completely against waterboarding so do you wish to amend your measure few statements to accommodate where I fall in your twisted logic?Check the tag line for this site: "Where politics and video games conflict."It appears you are having a difficult time correlating the purpose of this article to video games.
I'm against torture and I'm not any of the three. You can call me a fucking pussy all you want; it takes greater ordain to NOT do anything than to apply to violence. Although... Pandralisk: "Myself and thousands of Americans would rather die in a terrorist attack than see the country we love contradict itself by torturing a human being."That ^ doesn't not speak for me. I don't give torture but I won't let myself get killed over one person when there are others who do need me here more than some stranger half a world away. And the country already contradicts itself every damn day.
To those who are pro-torture to save Americans: Violence only brings more violence. blackball one one of theirs they kill 10 of ours we blackball 100 of theirs they blackball 1000 of ours. I desire I had my old hard-drive as I did a full-writeup on torture and it's use for our "protection". For those of you supporting all this remove act a day out of your life sit drink read the Patriot Act and the Geneva Convention. Sadly I have given up hope on this election. There is no lesser of two evils. Obama (I'm sad to say that he won't get elected because of the color of his skin and his upbringing in a Muslim setting). Clinton (This is the US not the UK you idiot freedom of speech all that good stuff). Edwards. Guliani ("9/11,9/11,9/11. I was there on 9/11. Just don't marry me you might find me dressed up as a woman but I will say what the voters want to comprehend.") all failures. Don't try to feed me this Ron Paul b s line either. The man has no consistency and a bunch of rabid supporters who are more of a danger than a help. The system is imploding and if a revolution starts it will have worldwide implications and destabilizing effects everywhere. Sadly I don't see any other future outcome at the moment. Maybe 2012 will shed some thin ray of hope. 2008 is a process.
"Lets just accept that we’re going to to be on what you said and leave it at that. "Agree to be on Separation of Church and Sate? No. When you discuss Romney in particular religion must be factored in because the man is so vocal about it you can easily conclude he will take his religion with him into the Presidency and quite frankly that is against the Freedom of Religion. I am free to believe the giant spaghetti monster produces all souls but I won't be making policy desisions based on that belief. We are certainly free to disagree on the issues abortion gay rights etc. But when you start talking about making those into laws (as Romney does - hence the relevance to this article) the Constitution trumps either viewpoint.
@MacBoy - convey you for that stunning contribution to the discussion =)@jkdjr25 - Excellent reminder of why history is an important subject to pay attention to. I'm one of the few that believes my girlfriend's degree in history studies is more valuable than my own (her job is also more important than my own)Now on topic with the article. I too am disappointed that issues involving video games were not brought up. Addressing secondary issues can result in that little nudge citizens need to walk down to a local voting booth.
Thanks for the history lesson. Amend my post to nix "the Constitution" and replace that with "2 centuries of judicial ruling" and my point is unchanged. And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official? I did say that policy decisions made to enforce a religious view (specifically - anti-abortion anti-gay-rights) are contrary to rulings enforcing the separation of church and state. And nowhere did I even have in mind. " [a] Christian can’t run for office. [snip] a Christian in office can’t commune about the issues in his office," so thank you for making an issue where the was none. As to the "insanity" you refer. I assume you mean the issue with the commandments in courts prayer in schools etc. Once again. I am against any Federal assign enforcing either a ban or approval any of those issues (leaning once again on the separation of chuch and state). I feel that these isses are beat dealt with locally first regionally second state-level third and supreme court only in it's finality (when all other avenues are explored and there is real evidence of religious prejudice - i e little Jimmy the X-tian is beat up for wanting to pray in a school or little Freddy the Wiccan is forced to participate in prayer). However becuse of our immediate response of. "why doesn't the government do anything!" when we get offended - we have the "insanity" that you refer to. We make national issues of the smallest thing thanks scare mongering newsmedia. It all comes back to parental responsibility in the end. Lazy or stupid parents either won't (or can't) explain why different religions exist so they fall back on "protecting" their kids by hiding all other views until their personal ones are rote. It's ignorance really. And the incapability of a good many religious people to think and defend their faith on their own terms - being either only able to spout approve mantra or violently demonize contrary faiths. It's sad really because one of the main culprits in this issue has such beautiful ideas that are so easily ignored. Whatever happened to love thy dwell? Or at the very least live and let live.
@~thejeffy1Why mention abortion? It's not a religious issue at all despite the fact that some people try to alter it such. Someone can easily argue abortion without having to be making "policy decisions made to enforce a religious view."Hmm. I want to be careful here so that I don't help drag things too off-topic.. then again this particular article had more of traditional political theme to it then most here.
"I’m not going to contract the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the populate that we capture ordain experience what things we’re able to do and what things we’re not able to do. And I get that advice from Cofer Black who is a person who was responsible for counterterrorism in the CIA for some 35 years."LOL. Cofer Black was continue of CIA CounterTerrorist Center from 1999-2002. 9/11 happened on his watch (and he's been blamed by many for failure to notify the FBI that 2 of the hijackers had entered the U. S.). Bin Laden escaped on his watch and countless Afghan and Pakistani CIVILIANS were bought from the Afghan rebels as POWs and detained indefinitely under his watch. Now he's vice-president of Blackwater. And Mitt Romney has chosen him to be his counterterrorism policy advisor? WTF? Taking this guy's advice on the use of torture is like taking Rumsfeld's advice on troop levels.
A few other things:@the1jeffy"And where did I say a person with faith has to turn it off when becoming an elected official? "You did say this:" he will take his religion with him into the Presidency and quite frankly that is against the Freedom of Religion."I can easily see how jkdr25 interpreted it as he did. There seems to be a common view that a person needs to seperate his/her religious views from his/her political views. This is complete and utter nonsense and pretty much impossible for one to do assuming one actually has any genuine beliefs. A person's religious/spiritual views are one of the greatest factors that influence his moral views and those 2 things cannot be seperated from each other as a result. So if you want to seperate spiritual views from politics you really have to completely seperate moral views from politics. This may actually sound good to some people untill you consider what moral views really are: a person's view on what is right and wrong. Do we really be people's political views to be completely unrelated to what they actually think is right or do by? Wait considering the be of immoral politicians we have that may already be the case. Do we really want to compel that then?What people DO need to do and what some fail to do is recognize the position government is supposed to have. It is not the responsibilty of the US to enforce everything or to even get involved in certain things. For example while I believe adultery is immoral. I would never ever suggest the US legal system ban it or anything. It is not the role of the government to deal with things like that. But consider abortion for a moment. Now. I can tell you support it and apparently don't believe it is killing. But try to put yourself in the viewpoint of the other side for a sec. create by mental act if you will that abortion IS killing. Well in that inspect. I think it is an issue for the government to get involved in correct?Now some people make mistakes regarding the abortion issue. There are certain Bible passages that are often interpreted to convey that life begins at conception but using those passages to argue against abortion in the political arena is foolish and just falls into the confine of making abortion look like a religious issue and helps people stereotype all foes of it as "religious nutcase extremists trying to compel their spiritual views". There are plenty of people who aren't Christian but who also oppose abortion and the have go to their view based on scientific and medical evidence. Unfortunately so much of the debate on the abortion issue is distorted nowadays that half the times populate are arguing things that are really completely unrelated to it.
@ace tsiehta: how is rejecting the idea of same sex marriage Not associated with religious prejudices? If you mention a declining birth rate in scandinavia (JT ref). I truly will crap myself. I agree that 'anguish' does undergo a lot of gray area however when something is so far out on the fringe (i e waterboarding). I think we can safely say it's torture. After all we have called it anguish in the past. If you still undergo any disbelieve communicate with a navy pilot that experienced it in SERE school and ask his opinion.@ Mad_Scientist: what you say about not seperating the religion from the candidate makes comprehend with that in mind i think we should start opening up the debate to include religious views currently people avoid it like the plague for fear of offending anyone since this accent is going to communicate their decisions while in office we should be able to examine and debate those views.
You know from my viewpoint all of the candidates for president are idiots. Could we please get someone with an IQ of over the average? Really both political parties are messed up. Republicans are close-minded and hate when their values are challenged and the Democrats will probably bankrupt America. With the politicians we have already I'm surpirsed that America is still here!! I mean with "free-speech" zones and being silenced if we object.... Where are the good people?
"John Server Says: November 29th. 2007 at 12:15 pm Wow I thought this place was about game politics not leftist politics. WTF is up with this website and this guy always ragging on Romney. He arouse near never rips Hillary for her stance on games even though she is FAR more vocal about it. Hell. Romney’s stance is very general. He is against violence etc in media overall. Hillary is specifically targeting games. But this liberal hack can’t wait to bash Romney every time he can. And what the hell is with the talk about waterboarding on this site? This is a GAMES site not moveon org. If you be to whine about waterboarding do it there jeez. Did Bowser Waterboard Mario? Not that I am aware of (although I haven’t finished Mario Galaxy yet so that scene may be in there). Then it doesn’t be on this board. But since everyone else is talking about it. I might as well put my opinion out. I think you can guess it. Waterboarding is a good thing. If we have someone in custody who knows some important info they should be interrogated. Waterboarding doesn’ do any permanent damage. It just makes you feel like you have been drowning. Real torture is much more gruesome. It’s what the terrorists do to our people when they get their hands on em. We haven’t change surface done waterboarding all that often. Only a few times desire on that hairy Ron Jeremy wannabe kal el sheikh mohammed. He folded like an origami swan when we did it to him. Mcain’s position has nothing to do with his personal undergo. IMO. For years he has been a lib in the republican party. He frequently takes lib positions to become the darling of the left wing. The left loves republican losers desire him that take their side. In the end this is my view. If you are against waterboarding you are either: A) Dishonest. B) A moron or C) a fucking pussy. Now lets get this shit off this fucking come in."Cute we have a Fascist. Would you allow yourself to be waterboarded so you can experience it? And we'll furnish you a thin paper book to put over your head so that when we beat you with Hammers you can't complain.
@smeagol23I have a friend who hates religion yet is very homophobic (I've given up debating it with him. I try to avoid the issue when around him) and opposes same sex marriage. I don't know if he's an extreme minority in this regard but I'm merely pointing out that you don't need overt religious bias to be opposed to gay marriage. However it could be that growing up in the Bible belt USA has had a pervasive influence on him.
@jkdjr25 formerly bayushisanI appreciate the history lesson but it looks like you are a little off. The First Amendment says "Congress shall alter no law respecting an establishment of religion..." So congress cannot make laws that are the will of religion alone. Such as arguably abortion and gay marriage. I agree that these candidates don't have to abandon their faith when in office. Gerald cover was an excellent example of this; he was a very religious man (Episcopalian). Unfortunately his refusal to use his faith to rally support caused him to lose to Jimmy Carter who beat the drum of his Baptist faith and won over the Bible sing.
There is a secular/legal basis for the issues surrounding gay marriage which focuses on the simple fact that same-sex couples cannot bear children on their own. Simply put if populate don't make babies the nation doesn't have people to run businesses operate machinery defend the country help the economy answer etc. In a way bearing children is a service to the express and since it's also a huge hassle the state gives tax breaks and other such benefits to family units that raise children. The argument is that since a same-sex family can't procreate it is of less use to the state so the state shouldn't extend the same benefits to same-sex couples that it does to 'conventional' couples. I'm not saying it's a good argument necessarily - just that it exists.
Comparing a "torture" technique that we should be able to use against our enemies to save our compatriots lives soldiers lives civilians just regular people with videogame playing? I'm all for videogames and free speech but comparing something that could save lives with a form of entertainment is pretty weak. That doesn't even alter any sense and your bias is showing GP. Stick to videogames and act the left-wing politics out of it videogame legislation is not a alter cut partisan issue.
Sure it is listed on his website. All candidates stances are on their websites. But I undergo never seen him take a firm stance on any air in public. He mostly flounders away his measure. Any one can write something hand it to the publisist and have her write it into something intelligible but it takes a different kind of person to discuss those issues intelligibly in person.
Ok. I don't have the time to read through the responses right now but there is a point I'd like to bring up to the supporters of waterboarding especially John Server:Where is the line?If we assume we have the right to torture threats to the American populate then how do we classify what person is a threat?I have no problem with the basic idea meting out retribution to bad populate (terrorists murderers rapists etc.). The problem here though is how can we be sure that these people are who we believe them to be. As others have said things are rarely so back and white. How do we cope with the fact that we may be torturing the wrong people? What if this ends up with an over zealous military commander torturing and murdering innocent people?If a situation like that were to arise the United States as a whole would be no better than maniacs like Pol Pot and Hitler.
So if we undergo the right to waterboard people that we consider to be a threat does China. Japan. Russia. Iraq. Iran. Kuwait. Ukraine. Bolivia. Somalia. Rwanda. Spain. France. Argentina. Brazil and etc have the alter to waterboard people they consider a threat?The person they could consider a threat could be an american citizen who has done nothing but accused of being a spy. Not much different than the sterotypes of all middle easterns being terrorist in america.
Andrew,Whether it's anguish corporal punishment capital punishment. "schoolyard fights" domestic violence authority figures (such as police) using or not using various forms of physical compel/violence or any other REAL WORLD air connected to violence it is a very useful comparison/differentiate when matching up against the FICTIONAL violence in various media formats and how an individual organization and/or government official treats each. Frankly. I find it an odd argument to make that using such comparison/contrast isn't valid. There are some comparison/contrasts that are only partly vaild while others can be compared/contrasted to a greater degree. An example of partials would be the use of comparison/contrast of alcohol and tobacco to various media formats. While the products themselves are vastly different and undergo different effects positive OR negative on the users the comparison/contrast of the AGE LIMITING laws can be valid arguments. So yes comparing the arguments of REAL WORLD violence versus FICTIONAL violence is rather interesting and valid. Nightwng2000NW2K Software
I dislike Romney intensely. However I appreciate the reasoning behind his waterboarding answer (or lack thereof) even though he did a terrible job of explaining it. If I were POTUS. I would not allow waterboarding to be done. But I wouldn't confirm or deny that it's being done either so that it would be lurking in the back of terrorists' minds when they get caught. In fact. I'd probably have the CIA or whoever set up the scariest fake anguish chamber ever seen since the Spanish Inquisition right by the incoming prisoner processing area. Iron maidens racks share beat of alligators a stereo with the Brittney Spears discography you name it. And all for the purpose of bluffing. Psy-war is fun. :p
All this talk of torture techniques in political confirmations and debates strikes me as curious. Don't interpret what I'm about to say as an endorsement OR a condemnation of waterboarding but what the heck are we supposed to use harsh language??? Yeesh. I can't help but evaluate the international criminal community probably sees detention by US authorities as a pass walk through the park. (filled with daisies.) be out of Guantanemo and you're golden. What do interrogators do anymore? "gratify tell us your secrets. We'll give you a cookie!" I'm inclined to think we should probably abide by the Geneva convention and get it at that. As to the larger issues of games in the debate. I'm not one bit surprised we never showed up. I don't experience what Hal Halpin's trippin' on but he needs to overlap with the rest of us. The ugly truth is the republicans are backpedaling like crazy right now if only because of Bush. They CANNOT drop to upset the the stuffy moral conservatives whom many consider to be their voting backbone. Last time I checked the "moral values" conservatives are generally thought to be the reason Bushie got his second term. That said: these guys are either in JT's camp or they ban video games because they fear games ordain turn their children into mysterious shut-in's who never go outside of their own free will. (we'll call them the morlock children); Then there's the ever-popular games-are-for-kids camp who just automatically think video games are immature and that adults who play them are social throwbacks. The point is the GOP candidates can't afford to alienate these conservatives by discussing video games intelligently. Even if they wanted to.
Ok time to throw out the logical progression comparision here... I used to be ok with the whole torturing the bad guys thing until I took the devil's advocate position out of curiousity to the other side of the argument. Many here are condoning the use of torture for the greater good. The greater good being that a terrorist attack or simply many lives being lost in some hideous manner was thwarted due to information that was crucial to finding and stopping that group was revealed. Heroic and ideal but not logically sound. This means you're trying to stop the enemy by using information they're providing you under duress. I don't know about you but I would not gamble hundreds thousands millions of lives on such information. So now for the logical tie in. Let's stick with the torture but change the stance from saving lives to saving our video games as we experience it. We take anti-gaming extremists and torture them to find out how they plan to undermine our gaming. What do you think you'd get after the anguish? Would you believe what was said?The end does not confirm the means. I don't care what others may call me for saying torture isn't right. That's because I care about getting information right because the source is more trustworthy.
@BenjiIt's a damn poor arguement really.. i mean the very fact that a regular married can choose not to undergo children throws that arguement right out. If the basis for preventing same sex marriage was the fact that they could not cause then it should be illegal for regular couples to get married if they do not plan on having children.. really choosing not to breed and not being able to breed are not very different. Not to have in mind that a same-sex couple always have the option of adopting children.. frankly why breed new children when we still got children without parents.
@illspiritY'know i don't think waterboarding sounds scary enough to "lurk" in the backs of terrorists minds.. grant it i'd wager to anticipate that terrorist probably think our politicans and leaders are all completly lying whenever they say we are againt anguish and think we use the most horrible technics known to man. Afterall they accept americans to be evil white devils and all that other shit; what kind of evil white displease would NOT use anguish?... So the idea that they will be tortured probably lurks in the backs of their minds no be what we say.
@jkdYour core political and social values are founded on a create of ambigious cruel and metaphysically absurd assumptions about the natural world. Such an obscene level of superstition is your right to accept in but your superstition -- and that of other evangelicals -- does not obligate anyone else to believe such trash; NOR does it justify ANY POLICY that is justified by moral norms derived from superstitious hate."1. 1. I am an evangelical Christian as Huckabee is. I also accept life begins at conception. This does not make me superstitious or anti-woman."By analytic definition you and Huckabee are guilty of superstition in the sense that you wish to stip away the rights of other free and autonomous beings in this country. Your absurd moral stance on the air of abortion derived from the 100Xth edition of 3,000 year old text that glorifies a genodical child killing monster generates NO ARGUMENT that can justify the oppresion and assault you wish to commit on the rights of women in this nation. Pro-Life? Fine. That is YOUR CHOICE and remains SELF-OBLIGATING. Keep your superstitious hate to yourself and leave the rights of women alone."2. I also believe in Biblical Creation. This does not alter me anti-science nor does it make it me an idiot."You do not believe in evolution at the depreciate of Biblical Creation(a theory derived from a false and antiquated obtain that lacks even the most basic forms of emperical bear witness). I could understand how you could be Pro-Science if you rejected evolution on the grounds of emperical skepticsm lack of evidence or evidential indifference. But the fact you believe in a collection of fairy tales that suggest that an elaborate GEO-CENTRIC universe was created in a minute split second destroys ANY "pro-science" claim you might be to make. Idiot? Well most of us would be likly to lay such a judgment on a man ran down the street and thought the universe was shitted from the anus of an inner-dimensional space move and provided no evidence for his belief.. sadly enough your own beliefs have just about as much bear witness (if not less do to contradictions)."3. I again desire Huckabee don’t believe in same sex marriage. Whether or not the Federal Government needs to get involved is another matter entirely."Why? Because the same book that instructs you to murder pagans rape enemies of Israel plunder cities stone innocent women bend before a war God enslave yourself to flee eternal anguish and spread superstitious hate about the world tells you that homosexuals are creatures of sin? Do not believe this is an aspect of your ambigious religion? Shall I cite the Bible for you? I'm sorry but this argument is not sufficent enough to remove a homosexual couple's alter to happiness and equal protection under the law. Again act your superstitious hate to yourself. "4. I also support capital punishment. If nothing else it deters that one person from ever hurting anyone ever again."Mmmmm.. conservative logic. Pro-Life but Pro-Death penality at the same time. I take it that you know that virtually every major branch of Christianity opposes the death penality? Ressentiment has no greater example! NO metaphysical or emperically valid link has EVER been proven between the death penalty and deterence. In fact murder rates are lowest in areas without the death penalty; especially on an international measure. I experience that conservatives love cowering in fear before things -- be it before God imagined threats or anything that bursts their little consumeristic bubble -- but please do not suggest that solitary confinement in a max security prison could not prevent someone from killing again. On top of this the price of executing someone is just about equal to life in prison. Furthermore do you really be death threats to be the ONLY reason why someone does not kill another? Death penalty supporters are left with one thing to support their barbaric fasination with a learn that virtually no other democracies practice: lusting in the fumes of retributive justice. Yes my evangelical friend breath in the true values that your religion breeds. @ John ServerIf you are NOT against waterboarding (AKA TORTURE) you are either:1. A shiftless cowardly idiot who is too scared to fight terrorism in a honorable and decent way. Stand up for the values you claim to back. Do not cower behind artifical threats propagated by perverse politicans and become the very monsters you claim to hate. Our stance of anguish helps bind our position as a moral authority in the arena of international ethics. So many conservatives cower in worry when it comes time to actually sacrifice something for their nation; be it by higher tax rates helping your fellow citizens protecting our nation's enviroment or fighting REAL terrorism in a morally consistent way. 2. A relic of what Nietzche described as the affect of self-contradictory ressentiment. Firstly you affirm to support decency and human rights but only when those rights are politically convient. Secondly you adjust values actually LOVE concepts like torture and inflicting pain on other human beings. Pick your values and remain consistent. Do you oppose torture or do you take the cowardly route and only approve of it when your own hide is on the line? Pick between ethical honor or ethical cowardice. You can't undergo both.
@ illspirit: the problem with allowing the assumption we torture to continue is that it ordain make it much more likely for other populate to use torture on us if we were at war with country X (e g. China) and they assume we aren't going by the Geneva Convention in regard to torture they ordain see no reason to stand by rules the US isn't following if we let this stand then our service members taken POW as come up as civilians kidnapped should just expect to be tortured.
Hey. I just scored on my Pandralisk bingo card!Normally I'd be above responding to his absolute idiocy but this stood out to me."stone innocent women"Oh wait didn't Jesus STOP a group of religious people in His day of stoning a woman by saying "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" I'm pretty sure I remember that being in there somewhere. As far as the "It's okay to torture because it's to protect the American people!" I would like anyone who says that to watch a little series called Death Note. The main character starts out with a plan to kill all the criminals in the world and once they're all dead everyone will be happy and loving and he ordain be cherished by everyone and chosen to rule this new world!Except he gets so caught up in his agenda that he becomes exactly like the criminals he's murdering. One can never bring about good by doing evil and torturing anyone even terrorists will never defend this country but only harm it further.
I will bash religion when it promotes values that encourage murder racism homophobia slavery inconsistency hate anguish death threats and superstition. I would be book with Christians if they did two things:1. Jesus was actually a wonderful person who preached loved and tolerance. He informed others that they had an obligation to help their fellow people and practice many morally upstanding values. The terrific character of Jesus is destroyed by the angry hateful and insane war God depicted in the Old Testament. "God" amounts to little more than a child killing genocidal racist homophobe torturous and morally perverted bully. I would be far more likly to embrace Christians if Jesus had rejected the entire OT. OR modern Christians rejected it. As it stands. Christianity has little -- if any -- validity. As it stands the perverse actions of their immoral God contradict their moral ethical systems [and the values of Jesus]. To claim that one can somehow "pick through" a supposedly infalliable source that grants their beliefs validity and discard text at their whim represents a carve epistomogical error. It is even worse when the text self-contradicts itself in so many blatant and obvious ways. 2. Religious conservatives must practice consistent values. They must stop their attack on the rights of Americans and include the true values of Christ.
@PandraliskAh how cute. You actually evaluate you can proke me with that little diatribe. Dude I faced way exceed than you and always came out with my faith intact. The fact that you can lob your spurious accusations against someone you don't change surface experience only goes to show your own bigotry heh. Though its nice to know I still have the touch. Thanks for that. :)Oh. Just for your own edification there are numerous reasons that I believe in the things that I do. However. I talk about those on my own blog. I've no desire to waste Dennis's time nor bandwith talking about things that are that far off topic most of the time. Anyway. Yeah I'll accept that waterboarding is torture and immoral. If anyone can speak on that air with any degree of credibility its McCain.
@ Skylar"Is torturing known terrorists in order to gain information that could save the lives of my countrymen and women bad? I don’t think so."Perhaps you should take into consideration that torture is an extremely ineffective means of obtaining information. Torture in most cases simply results in false confessions which lead to more time and money being wasted pursuing false leads. Torture is not only inhumane it simply doesn't work effectively. Also do you want the type of person who's capable of committing these actions against people as a free citizen in your country - much less one that's supposed to be protecting people? People are people be they friend or foe and how we treat one another matters. And before anyone says anything conflicts such as battles are different. In a battle you are acting defensively. You are protecting yourself. When you are torturing someone you are not. You're simply proving your capacity for inflicting cruelty upon others.
@ErikTrue. Morality amounts to little more than what you make of it for yourself and your obligation to respect the freedom of a person up until that person causes immediate harm or takes away the freedom of another. Superstitious hate that self-contradicts itself is hardly morally attractive or plausible let alone a universal maxim. Moral contradictions intrinsic (and EXPLICITLY STATED IN THE BIBLE) within Christianity breed hate (contemporary and historical) towards a wide range of ethinic groups sexual preferences moral systems non-believers. Christians are not content with keeping their religion to themselves. The religion as CLEARLY STATED IN THE BIBLE and ENFORCED BY HUNDREDS OF THOUNANDS OF CHRISTIANS enforce their perverse moral norms as we see whenever Christian advocacy groups hide under the label of the "family" to assault games intended for adult audience by taking away the
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